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	<title>Comments on: Castle doctrine come home to roost</title>
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	<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3584</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3584</guid>
		<description>I am not mentally ill, and you never can say until you're in a situation, but I think I'd probably feel like I did the world a favor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not mentally ill, and you never can say until you&#8217;re in a situation, but I think I&#8217;d probably feel like I did the world a favor.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3583</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3583</guid>
		<description>I'm just saying that if you have never killed anyone you have no idea how you would react, so  your big tough talk about "sleeping well" shows either ignorance or mental illness.

It's not that you should feel guilty, but that, if you're a mentally-healthy human being, all of the evidence suggests that you &lt;em&gt;would&lt;/em&gt;.

If you were the kind of person who would kill someone over $5 and sleep soundly afterwards, you'd probably belong (and eventually wind up in) either in prison or under heavy psychotropic meds.

Otherwise, I'm with you: Stop those who would use the threat of violence to take our hard-earned money. All of them. Including the government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just saying that if you have never killed anyone you have no idea how you would react, so  your big tough talk about &#8220;sleeping well&#8221; shows either ignorance or mental illness.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that you should feel guilty, but that, if you&#8217;re a mentally-healthy human being, all of the evidence suggests that you <em>would</em>.</p>
<p>If you were the kind of person who would kill someone over $5 and sleep soundly afterwards, you&#8217;d probably belong (and eventually wind up in) either in prison or under heavy psychotropic meds.</p>
<p>Otherwise, I&#8217;m with you: Stop those who would use the threat of violence to take our hard-earned money. All of them. Including the government.</p>
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		<title>By: SPO</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3582</link>
		<dc:creator>SPO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3582</guid>
		<description>So why should I feel guilty?  Don't I have the right to fight to keep my money?  And if you are going to fight a criminal, you have to assume he is going to try to kill you before he loses.  Accepting that reality does not make me a sociopath, it makes me a realist.  No one has a right to threaten me with violence or attack me in order to get what I have worked hard for.  And I am not going to lose sleep over fighting to defend myself--even if the guy winds up dead.

People who use violence to take other people's money are absolutely disgusting human beings.  And, to be honest, I don't really care what happens to them when they work their evil trade.  As a society, we need to make sure that these predators are stopped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So why should I feel guilty?  Don&#8217;t I have the right to fight to keep my money?  And if you are going to fight a criminal, you have to assume he is going to try to kill you before he loses.  Accepting that reality does not make me a sociopath, it makes me a realist.  No one has a right to threaten me with violence or attack me in order to get what I have worked hard for.  And I am not going to lose sleep over fighting to defend myself&#8211;even if the guy winds up dead.</p>
<p>People who use violence to take other people&#8217;s money are absolutely disgusting human beings.  And, to be honest, I don&#8217;t really care what happens to them when they work their evil trade.  As a society, we need to make sure that these predators are stopped.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3550</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3550</guid>
		<description>Great discussion. Don't lose track of the fact that the criminal justice system, a human creation, isn't about moral right and wrong. Horn could quite reasonably conclude that he was in the wrong morally without negating the grand jury's decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion. Don&#8217;t lose track of the fact that the criminal justice system, a human creation, isn&#8217;t about moral right and wrong. Horn could quite reasonably conclude that he was in the wrong morally without negating the grand jury&#8217;s decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3551</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3551</guid>
		<description>Bruceb, you've got the law wrong. I know it's hard to read -- it's written by the Texas Legislature.

In order to understand Texas statutes you have to think like a Texas Legislator, which for most of us requires either a prefrontal lobotomy or heavy drugs.

9.43(1) and 9.43(2) are disjunctive. In order to use deadly force in protection of someone else's property (in addition to the requirements of 9.41 and 9.42; it doesn't have to be a night time crime because a burglary can be committed during the day in Texas) you must reasonably believe that the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft . . . to the tangible, movable property;  &lt;b&gt;or&lt;/b&gt; (2)  that: (A)  the third person has requested his protection of the land or property etc. etc. etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruceb, you&#8217;ve got the law wrong. I know it&#8217;s hard to read &#8212; it&#8217;s written by the Texas Legislature.</p>
<p>In order to understand Texas statutes you have to think like a Texas Legislator, which for most of us requires either a prefrontal lobotomy or heavy drugs.</p>
<p>9.43(1) and 9.43(2) are disjunctive. In order to use deadly force in protection of someone else&#8217;s property (in addition to the requirements of 9.41 and 9.42; it doesn&#8217;t have to be a night time crime because a burglary can be committed during the day in Texas) you must reasonably believe that the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft . . . to the tangible, movable property;  <b>or</b> (2)  that: (A)  the third person has requested his protection of the land or property etc. etc. etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3580</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3580</guid>
		<description>LJS, that bit about guilty feelings &lt;em&gt;can't&lt;/em&gt; be right because it'd mean that SPO is either a sociopath or talking out of his ass when he says he'd kill a mugger over $5 and sleep well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LJS, that bit about guilty feelings <em>can&#8217;t</em> be right because it&#8217;d mean that SPO is either a sociopath or talking out of his ass when he says he&#8217;d kill a mugger over $5 and sleep well.</p>
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		<title>By: bruceb</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3581</link>
		<dc:creator>bruceb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3581</guid>
		<description>lets start with a very basic fact that you have wrong - they WERE on his property.
Does that change things for you?  (fwiw, I think he should be indicted).
He went out (not expecting to see them) saw them at the tree in his front yard, and from the tape, damn near similtaneously told them to freeze and then shot them as they reacted to a guy with a gun by turning to run.
I also don't believe you are right about this being allowed in defense of a neighbor's house - not only are you incorrect in your reading (it clearly states the 3rd party owner must have requested the help, but it also clearly states that first the requirements of the previous two subsections be met (defending one's own person, and one's own property), and those require this to be a "night time" crime given the other circumstances in the Horn shooting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lets start with a very basic fact that you have wrong - they WERE on his property.<br />
Does that change things for you?  (fwiw, I think he should be indicted).<br />
He went out (not expecting to see them) saw them at the tree in his front yard, and from the tape, damn near similtaneously told them to freeze and then shot them as they reacted to a guy with a gun by turning to run.<br />
I also don&#8217;t believe you are right about this being allowed in defense of a neighbor&#8217;s house - not only are you incorrect in your reading (it clearly states the 3rd party owner must have requested the help, but it also clearly states that first the requirements of the previous two subsections be met (defending one&#8217;s own person, and one&#8217;s own property), and those require this to be a &#8220;night time&#8221; crime given the other circumstances in the Horn shooting.</p>
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		<title>By: LJS</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3552</link>
		<dc:creator>LJS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3552</guid>
		<description>You can find a link to the public Champion article on their site:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/698c98dd101a846085256eb400500c01/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&#38;Highlight=0,steele

For the hypothetical, I was assuming the client said that the theives turned towards him and he wasn't sure if they had weapons, or were going to try to charge him, when he fired -- moving the case from defense of property and shooting someone who is retreating to an arguable case of self-defense of the person. If you change those facts and this is genuinely a case of a retreating theif shot in the back, under CT or MA law, he's got major problems, even if the retreat rule doesn't apply due to a stand-your-ground or castle law.

As to guilty feelings -- normal but doesn't tell us much. The police authored research on officer-involved shootings say it is normal for most people to feel intense guilt over even a clearly legally justified shooting and to have lots of second thoughts. For a normal person, one has broken one of the biggest taboos -- taken a human life -- which is likely to cause all sorts of psychological and moral issues. Sleep distrurbance, eating troubles, nightmares, sexual disfunction -- all normal after-affects of a self-defense incident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can find a link to the public Champion article on their site:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/698c98dd101a846085256eb400500c01/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&amp;Highlight=0,steele" rel="nofollow">http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/698c98dd101a846085256eb400500c01/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&amp;Highlight=0,steele</a></p>
<p>For the hypothetical, I was assuming the client said that the theives turned towards him and he wasn&#8217;t sure if they had weapons, or were going to try to charge him, when he fired &#8212; moving the case from defense of property and shooting someone who is retreating to an arguable case of self-defense of the person. If you change those facts and this is genuinely a case of a retreating theif shot in the back, under CT or MA law, he&#8217;s got major problems, even if the retreat rule doesn&#8217;t apply due to a stand-your-ground or castle law.</p>
<p>As to guilty feelings &#8212; normal but doesn&#8217;t tell us much. The police authored research on officer-involved shootings say it is normal for most people to feel intense guilt over even a clearly legally justified shooting and to have lots of second thoughts. For a normal person, one has broken one of the biggest taboos &#8212; taken a human life &#8212; which is likely to cause all sorts of psychological and moral issues. Sleep distrurbance, eating troubles, nightmares, sexual disfunction &#8212; all normal after-affects of a self-defense incident.</p>
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		<title>By: FlameStrike</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3554</link>
		<dc:creator>FlameStrike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3554</guid>
		<description>As someone who was mugged a few months ago, I wish I'd had someone like Joe Horn for my neighbor. I also guarantee that if I'd been able to, if I'd been armed, I would have killed the guy who robbed me. I applaud Mr. Horn for his actions in this matter.

It was asked earlier in this discussion whether a criminal's life is worth less than than of a law-abiding citizen. As far as I'm concerned, the answer is an unqualified yes, it is worth less. That's just my opinion, though.

As for Mr. Horn regretting the incident, I can understand that. It can't be easy for him to know he ended two lives, and everything he's gone through since then could make anyone question if they did the right thing. I don't know how I'd have handled things, how I'd feel about those events, if I'd killed the guy who mugged me. I only know I would have if I could have.

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who were in the wrong in the Horn Case were the burglars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who was mugged a few months ago, I wish I&#8217;d had someone like Joe Horn for my neighbor. I also guarantee that if I&#8217;d been able to, if I&#8217;d been armed, I would have killed the guy who robbed me. I applaud Mr. Horn for his actions in this matter.</p>
<p>It was asked earlier in this discussion whether a criminal&#8217;s life is worth less than than of a law-abiding citizen. As far as I&#8217;m concerned, the answer is an unqualified yes, it is worth less. That&#8217;s just my opinion, though.</p>
<p>As for Mr. Horn regretting the incident, I can understand that. It can&#8217;t be easy for him to know he ended two lives, and everything he&#8217;s gone through since then could make anyone question if they did the right thing. I don&#8217;t know how I&#8217;d have handled things, how I&#8217;d feel about those events, if I&#8217;d killed the guy who mugged me. I only know I would have if I could have.</p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, the only people who were in the wrong in the Horn Case were the burglars.</p>
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		<title>By: A Voice of Sanity</title>
		<link>http://testblog.apublicdefender.com/2008/07/01/castle-doctrine-come-home-to-roost/#comment-3553</link>
		<dc:creator>A Voice of Sanity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apublicdefender.com/?p=1288#comment-3553</guid>
		<description>Apparently, based on recent reports, even Horn thinks Horn was wrong. It seems he now regrets his actions. Shooting two unarmed men in the back isn't exactly "True Grit".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently, based on recent reports, even Horn thinks Horn was wrong. It seems he now regrets his actions. Shooting two unarmed men in the back isn&#8217;t exactly &#8220;True Grit&#8221;.</p>
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